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HOT SANDS
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The hot sands do NOT exist in all Temples. The hot sands VARY from Temple to Temple. However, the HOT SANDS that I find to be totally out of place are the kind of hot sands that I walked across and that I have personally witnessed in the past 20+ years of being a Shriner. Many people have asked me "what are the hot sands?" Here is my reply: There are two things I try to avoid in life. Putting my finger into an ELECTRIC socket. And walking the HOT sands again.
I'll post your replies on this topic if you send them to me at carl@carlejones.com
I am ONLY posting
entries sent to me.
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This is the original email I sent which started this discussion.
Nobles:
As long as we
continue to allow practices, such as the hot sands, in the
Shrine, we will continue to dig our own grave for Shrinedom. And
the Directors Staff units that help put them on, should be
renamed the "Funeral Directors Staff."
I'm sure by now, the subject line
and that first sentence have raised the blood pressure of more
than a few people. No doubt, some on this very list will fire
back some highly emotionally charged reply defending the hot
sands, criticizing me, extolling the bonding benefits of events
such as the hot sands, reporting how THEY walked the sands and
"all good Shriners should do likewise", etc..... (I'll bet that
some are already writing a reply without reading the rest of
this!)
However, all that has been said and
all that may be said does not change the fact that we DO live in
a very litigious society. Is it really going to take a major
lawsuit (actually, as I understand it, we've already had
some) which will cast a very black eye on our hospitals, to
shut the hot sands down once and for all?
Do you honestly think that we are immune
from someone having a heart attack and dieing during the hot
sands, based on how they operate? And if you
think the "medical exam" that is given before allowing people to
walk the sands is adequate to defend us in court, you have
another think coming to you... Can you see the
headlines in your local paper?
Can you hear the national news anchor
telling that story? Do you honestly think if (when)
some tragedy occurs that it won't SEVERELY impact the hospitals?
If you think that it WON'T impact us, please oh please, explain
why. I'd love to hear that argument.
If the hot sands are okay, then why
close the ceremony to non-Shriners? Invite the press! If it's
that much fun, then the more, the merrier! Right? Wrong!!
Why
are you a Shriner? To see the ever dwindling
list of people who are willing to let you shock them -- or, to
help the kids in our hospitals? Honestly, which is
more important?
The fact of the matter is that
you're going to lose FAR MORE good men by having the hot sands,
than you will get by having them. This is 2006. Simply put,
times have changed.
Look at all of the changes in Shrinedom in
just the last few years! While I walked some very hot sands as I
became a Noble back in the early 1980's, the fact is that "that
was then and this is now." I know of one situation where one of
the most influential men in Dallas (at that time) walked out of
our Temple when he was rudely handled during the preparation for
the hot sands. It took several years of healing before they
could convince him to become a Shriner and he only would do it
then in a private ceremony. Why? Because that is NOT
what draws high quality men to our fraternity in this day and
time. Once it did. But no longer in large numbers.
Those who believe it does need only to read the membership
statistics. The saying is still true; the definition of
insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting to
get different results.
Being the editor of a newsletter (
www.itsgreattobeamason.org ) I am in a unique position to
read about events from all over Shrinedom. As you might know
from reading our emails, Shrinedom has - or is at least trying
to - make some headway in England. There are a lot of Brothers
in England on my list. Their comments about the Shrine aren't
about the kids we help or the hospitals.
Their comments are about the image and the problems they know of
within the Shrine. Many have emphatically stated "don't come to
England..." We'll see how all of that works out..........
Many of my friends
reading this LOVE the hot sands. No doubt they are
unhappy too and I'm sure I'll get my share of some private
butt-chewing emails from them. But I would say to them as I say
to others what I said above -----Is it
really going to take a major lawsuit which will cast a very
black eye on our hospitals, to shut the hot sands down
once and for all? You tell me..... How much public damage will
we have to endure to the hospitals to get these shut down once
and for all? Are you willing to sacrifice the treatment of the
kids for the "fun" of shocking your friends for a few minutes?
How many kids are you willing to forgo treatment for in the
name of "good clean fun." You may not want to answer that
question. In fact, you may deny that it is a valid question in
the first place. However, you'd be dead wrong. The FACTS are
that we have lost good men due to the hot sands and the facts
are that we lost their support, financially and socially, as
well. That translates into lost donations to the kids.
In fact, please DO tell me. Send me
your thoughts and I'll publish ALL of them in our newsletter.
The website does NOT have all of the information I
receive. I send some information to ONLY those people who have
joined the free list. That means if you don't join the
newsletter, you won't see all of the replies. The only
people that say I don't publish opinions which differ from my
own, are the people that don't read the newsletter. Send your
thoughts on this to me at
carl@carlejones.com It should be interesting to see what
people have to say. I know, clearly, that many people don't
agree with me. I fully expect to get letters (some from close
friends) telling me to shove this in a body cavity of mine. Or
hammering me for daring to bring up this topic when I don't go
to Shrine meetings any longer, etc.. etc... etc... Please, say
all you want to say, but
answer the question I asked above:
Why are
you a Shriner? To see the ever
dwindling list of people who are willing to let you shock them
-- or, to help the kids in our hospitals? Honestly, which is
more important?
Best Wishes,
Carl E. Jones
Life Member, Hella Shrine
Dallas
This was a subsequent post of mine which offers a challenge (yet unmet) to those who love the hot sands.
Brethren:
There are a lot of opinions on this
topic. Obviously from the MANY replies I've gotten
the MAJORITY of Shriners do NOT support
the antiquated hot sands procedure of
shocking people for the pleasure of others. (And if you really
believe people are given a fair option to opt out of it, or are
really asked their honest opinion, you probably also believe
that Santa really does come on Christmas Eve with a big bag of
toys....) When you read all of the replies I'll soon
post at
www.itsgreattobeamason.org you'll
see that the days of the hot sands are numbered. Years to late,
but still better late than never.
Of course,
don't you find it interesting, as I do,
that none of the very few supporters of the hot sands have
pledged their entire net worth and reputation to their Temple to
defend it and the divan members when an accident occurs
and (I'm sure) a non-Mason attorney attacks with a vengeance to
get all he can get? Why don't one of you guys that
just love the hot sands sooooooo much and think it's sooooooo
wonderful, put at least $50,000 in an irrevocable trust to be
used solely to defend your Temple against hot sands lawsuits.
Hmnnnnnnnnn? After all, your love of this hazing
practice is endangering not only YOUR Temple, but the Hospitals
as well. Not to mention the damage it will do to the reputation
of the Hospitals for years to come. But you guys don't really
care about mundane stuff like that do you? You'd rather juice up
your buddies, laugh, lament for the good ole days of Shrinedom
and turn a deaf ear and blind eye to the massive exposure you
are creating for your Temple.
Don't insult the rest of us by
acting like you care about the kids when
your passions are so out of bounds for an event that HAS been
denounced by Imperial (I was in the room and heard it with my
own two ears, in Tampa), that you'll continue on your merry
little way, all the while knowing that you have no ability to
cover the cost of the lawsuit that your Temple WILL lose if (and
when) someone is hurt. Heaven forbid if someone has a random,
freak heart attack. Imagine the
news headlines on that one as you plan the next round of "who
gets shocked next..."
Fraternally,
Carl
Dallas
*** After my request for $50,000 to be put back to defend a Temple, I got this email from my friend, Bill Neubauer who is both an attorney and a Noble at Hella.....
Carl, 50k is
not even close to adequate for a defense of this type of suit.
But your point is well taken!
Take care and
keep up the good work.
Bill
This was a second post from Noble Bill about this topic: ----------Carl, you have to look not
only at attorneys fees, but the costs of witnesses, depositions,
expert testimony if necessary, and if you lose at trial,
compensatory damages, punitive damages and the other sides attorneys
fees if awarded and available under the applicable state law, all
that adds even more to the cost. Then you have reputation cost,
embarrassment, the whole set of intangible losses.... Not a pretty
picture....---------------------
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| Comments from me, if any, are in this column. | The posting I received is in this column. |
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Carl let me ask you how long before you say we
can no longer bring kids to the hospitals because we may get in
a wreck and someone may sue us. Nowadays with all the slime ball
attorneys on the face of this earth if we stop doing what ever
we do we will have to stay locked in our house 24/7.If all you
can do is worry about being sued maybe you need to move to some
foreign country that doesn"t have lawyers.Because as long as
there are attorneys you can get sued for getting out of bed in
the morning. The initiation I went through in the shrine was not
as bad as what I went through to join a fraternity in college. I
am proud to have been initiated into the shrine like everyone
before me was. If you feel that bad about the shrine maybe you
ought to forsake your vow you took and get out. Thru venting
'sparky' JERUSALEM SHRINE
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Bro Carl,
Sorry but I have to agree with the hot sands. That is NOT a
reason for decline. I have been a Shriner for about a year now
and I am VERY proud of walking the "Hot Sands".
As far as the Shrine being sued. A brother who would sue the
Shrine, SR, YR, a Blue Lodge, or another Brother is NOT a Mason
at all. He is a FELLOW! (About the worst thing one Mason can
call another)
Bro
John Guthrie
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I added the * so that the post would not contain a word which I feel is inappropriate in this setting. |
Dear Carl;
Though your arguments seem reasonable you
overlook the basic elements of the male animal. To be
politically correct, this day and age, you must ignore the manly
art of male bonding and companionship. We have let the liberals
and sue crazies rule our lives. We no longer are men among men
having become "mommies boys" and having been "pussy whipped".
To do something in secret is frustrating to the female who
continue to want to dominate. They have succeeded in
infiltrating most hereto for all male fraternal organizations
(Elks, IOOF, etc.), even our front line fighting forces, and now
are totally frustrated by not being able to infiltrate the
Shrine.
In our Temples (this word is no longer to be
used because it is not politically correct) we have ladies
attending our club meetings, making decisions as to where we
will hold those meetings and the projects we attend. These
ladies act as secretaries to our Potentates and organize and
direct our social functions and correct us if our parliamentary
procedure is not totally correct. In order to satisfy our
ladies, we have opened the first section to their viewing. I
suspect that many of those that complain about the closed second
section are using law suits and any other scare tactic as the
elephant's trunk to infiltrate so that the whole elephant will
soon be able to enter.
If you cannot accept the manly art of
initiation then stay out. We need men not mommies boys in the
Shrine. If money for our hospitals is all that Shrine means to
you, then you are not fully aware of the purpose of the Shrine.
The Shrine took on the hospitals as a
philanthropy some years after it was organized. To many, the
hospitals have been the tail wagging the dog. Do you think that
the 400,000 Shrine members donating $5.00 each per year to the
hospital fund is what keeps the hospitals going - do the math.
It is the endowments (use in broad terms) that keep the money
flowing to support the hospitals. If the Iowa Corporation and
Colorado Corporation separated they each would still be able to
sustain themselves. Even if the Shrine separated from the
Masonic Family, Shrine would survive.
In conclusion, let the Shrine remain a male
organization doing male things. If mommies boys and the p****
whipped males cannot stand it, then don't join!
Charley Chapman
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Hot sands does NOT have to use "shocking people",
there are a lot of clean and/or messy stunts. By the way is your name "Chicken Little"? You obviously have not understood what has been said by Imperial. I challenge you to come to the SDA annual meeting and hear what is being said by Imperial concerning the second section. Fred J. Madison Sr. <fmadison@mcleodusa.net> |
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Poor Carl
What's wrong Carl is no one paying attention to you ? So
now you are asking for someone to challenge you. You used the
word, us , and yet you are the
one that chose to leave the Shrine.
Poor Poor Pitiful Carl.
John Krodel
Proud to be a Shriner
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Get me off of this list. Noble Jones, YOU and
not the hot sands have lost me!!!!
Stormy Thorson
Khedive Shriners
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I walked the "Hot Sands" of Noblehood, just about
3 years after suffering a Severe CVA w/ right semi-pareses.
]
Even more surprising was that I never became an
Ancient, Free and Accepted Mason until after I had had my
Stroke.
I am in favor of learning the
complete Masonic ritual, and "walking the hot sands" of
Nobledom. You may hear the "just like I did" inflection if you
like, but I can still give you my .02 cents worth in a free
email!
Sincerely, Taro Stahl
who wants to put $50,000.00 of their hard earned
income toward outlawing the "hot sands" rite of nobledom. That's
$50,000.00 clear, without concerns such as tax-incentives!
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Well carl, you were doing just fine until you brought up the "hot
sands" issue again. You seem to think that anything to do with the "Hot Sands" must be abolished. You are wrong. What we need to do is encourage enough MEN to join the Shrine who would not be intimidated by the Hot Sands. Of course we can bow down to the politically correct people and become something less than what we are. Kind of what you did when you resigned from you position in the line. I will probably be censored by the site because I had the audacity to disagree with someone on the site!! Of course you don't give your Temple affiliation or anything else any more. Fraternally yours; Dave (Dusty) Breisch South Plains Daylight Lodge #1443 Lubbock, Texas Cornerstone Lodge #836 Wuerzburg, Germany Scottish and York Rites Lubbock, Texas KHIVA Temple Amarillo, Texas Ambassador, European Shrine Club, Heidelberg, Germany |
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| There were some emails that weren't particularly PRO or CON for the Hot Sands. I've listed them here. Between the 2 groups. Some are actually more in favor or getting rid of the hot sands, in my opinion, but I put them in this section to be fair. | |
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The author asked me to post this
anonymously.
Carl
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Carl.. I responded to this several
months ago.. still have the same feelings about it. At Moslah,
candidates were asked if anyone had any heart problems or back
injuries... about 20% of the class responded. We put on the
sidelines to watch the "Hot Sands". EVERYONE on the hot sands
participated willingly and in good humor.
I am certain that all the Shriners
who have participated in the Hot Sands, has a special bond. I
liken that to the initiation I experienced in College to a
Business Fraternity. One of the Pledge classes before mine, did
NOT experience the same initiation. They , as a class, were very
close.. the rest of us were very lose.. but not as close to
them. It's a bonding thing.
Today, that Fraternity admits women.
I still have a problem addressing a woman as 'Brother'...
The Shrine has changed. They have
dropped the YR/SR requirement for membership and have even
considered dropping the MASONIC requirement for membership. In
view of their (IS) virtual lack of support for Masonry in
general, I no longer hold the Shrine in as much esteem as I did
5 years ago. I am not criticizing the Nobles who do continue to
support the Shrine, that is their choice.. I believe that MOST
of them are loyal to their Units and local Shrine. The argument
I heard was the 'expense' of YR/SR membership made it difficult
to stay a Shriner... and this was from Shriners in a UNIT.
 Of
course, these are the same Masons that whine and threaten to
demit when their Lodge has to raise dues to just pay the bills,
taxes and per capita to Grand Lodge.
So much for logic.
Doesn't matter to me if the Shrine
keeps the Hot Sands or creates an Cool Oasis. The big issue
isn't one of liability - it's whether the Shrine is still
relevant to Freemasonry and if it is mature enough to move
beyond the Hot Sands.
I see the Units as being the mortar
that binds the Nobles to each other and not to the Shrine.
Corky Douthitt
P:M:, P.H.P, P.T.I.M
Hurst, Texas
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Carl,
I'm not a Shriner but I do feel that
we have diluted our fraternity to just another club with the
removal of the "Dogma" that sets us apart. We have had our hands
tied on the Blue Lodge degrees, our actions limited in the York
Rite degrees, and now the "Hot Sands" are going away. I
understand that our membership is dwindling but are we
really going to continue lowering our standards and not leave a
lasting impression on our candidates in the name of membership?
Why don't I just join a frequent flyer club.
We've closed our "Home and School",
Limited our memory work, changed the time table to become a MM,
and not asked our new members to invest anything but money in
our fraternity. When do we stop diluting our work. We are giving
away our identity just as the Government is taking away our
individuality because of a few "Offended" people. At what point
will we remove the Bible from our Lodge Room? Stop the insanity.
Masonry has existed for this long because of an Investment each
of us made to the Craft. Stop letting the minority rule and
dictate our actions.
Thanks,
ttfn JD Mooney II |
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my dear Brother,
excellent debate on a very important topic-the
future of Masonry.
Because that is
NOT what draws high quality men to our fraternity in this day
and time.
I don't know if I agree or
disagree with this statement about the Hot Sands, because I
really have doubts if there really are any high quality men out
there that we could make a Mason or Shriner out of, no matter
what the Sands temperature.
I am 38 years old, and except
for a few fellows my age who are mostly masons, my
contemporaries are largely concerned with a selfish pursuit of
Yuppie consumerism, and are quite content to by shiny things
they don't need and watch a bunch of strategically shaved,
overpaid baboons play children's' games. They have no interest
in the body politic, or anything approaching citizenship; there
spiritual pursuits, if they have any, are largely centered
around some see and be seen mega church hoping to bribe or
manipulate God into giving them what they want.
Philosophy extends only as far
was what entertains, and fellowship is only pursued at the
shallowest levels.
I love Masonry, its history,
and ideals. The reason more men aren't joining has nothing to
do with memory work, or any threat, real or perceived, that
there is a chance of being shocked to incontinence. The real
fault is that Masonry is fundamentally about the greater
good, doing what one can today to make tomorrow better,
rendering unto God all that which he is due (and a real
understanding that we belong to Him and not the other way
'round), and the responsibility that I am my Brother's Keeper.
Many, when made aware of the opportunity for Masonic
affiliation will ask "what's in it for me?" Well, my friend, if
that is the first concern, then you need not apply.
JJT, 32 degree Mason, Shriner, and Baptist Minister
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As a officer in one of the largest
Shrine Centers, I am pleased to inform your readers that we do
not use the hot sands as part of our ceremonial and have not
done so since Imperial said it should not be used. I am sure
the majority of Shrine Centers
do not use it. It seems that when
the Shrine is mentioned in your publication we only hear from
those who are disgruntled with the Shrine. The majority of
Shriners do care about the Kids and work diligently to support
the Hospitals.
Bill
Pittsburgh, PA
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I was under the impression that the Imperial had banned the hot sands? r.a.hodgson@juno.com <r.a.hodgson@juno.com>
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Well I for one elected not to go
thru the hot sand and didn't. Nothing was said about it and I
know those who get out of the Shrine all ways have some thing
bad to say about it. There may be some things not so good at
the temple but do you all so tell every one how many kids the
temple help and the good things they do. Why is it you just
keep bringing up things that seem bad to you. Where would all
the helped kids be with out the Shrine.
William Pennington
Hella Shrine
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Hello Bro Carl
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Is the Shrine really so important that it takes all the space you give it? An even better question might well be, does it contribute anything at all to the Masonic Craft. I am often glad non-Masons have no idea that Shrine members, old guys doing nothing in their community except acting like idiots at parades, are members of a Masonic Lodge.
I’ve been secretary of my lodge for perhaps too long. It is a small and wonderfully exciting lodge. Except for myself and the treasurer who is all of 44, all the officers are under the age of 40 and not one has joined the Shrine. They keep asking what does the Shrine do? The hospitals they know about but they ask what does Shrine give to Masonry, what does it contribute to the Blue Lodge, does it do anything for the local community? I recall that about five years after taking the office of secretary, I had a letter forwarded to me from Scottish Rite written by a woman in Montana. The letter said that her husband had died and he was a member of the lodge. Well, like any secretary with less than 100 members, I had a pretty good idea of the lodge members. I called the Scottish Rite office and said thanks but he wasn’t one of our members and they said he wasn’t one of theirs either. End of story. . .
NO! About three months later another letter was forward to me. This was a rather nasty letter and the woman ranted and raved about how inconsiderate, thoughtless and un-Masonic the lodge was because it hadn’t honored her husband. Why he was a DeMolay Legion of Honor, KCCH, member of the Shrine Divan, Past High Priest had been given a Rose Croix funeral service and all that. Ok, he was not a member of the lodge, not on my books. Maybe he had been? Indeed he had been. He was dropped from NON-PAYMENT of twenty-five year previous. But Shrine and all those bodies never cared, never checked. Was he even a Mason? Not a good one that’s for sure.
Maybe the best thing for the Masonic Craft would be to go back to the Craft lodges only. Let Shrine wonder off to its own world of wonderment, close down Scottish and York Rites and start getting Masons back doing something for and in their communities as lodge members instead of spending time trying to be members of a divan. I remember when I had grandiose thoughts of going thru the line in Grand Lodge. A fellow candidate for Junior Grand Warden ask me why I was a labor union president, serving as a State Commissioner on the Arts Commission, working on an advisory board at a local college and a other few community and state things. Why wasn’t I active in Shrine? I asked him what he did for his community and he gave me a long list; Scottish Rite KCCH, Past High Priest and Commander, Shrine Divan, Past Patron of Star, Rainbow Dad Advisor, DeMolay Advisor and more. I looked at him and asked again, “But what are you doing for your community?” With a completely innocent look he said, “I just told you.” All I could do was shake my head in wonderment and quietly say, “That’s Masonry. What are you doing for your community?” I got back a blank stare. Neither of us were elected.
I think understand why the young brethren in my small, active and involved lodge are not in Shrine or any of the other bodies. They don’t see that they do anything for their community. The members just pat themselves on the back, wear fancy aprons or hats and talk about what wondrous things they do as they sit listening to dinner digest. Small wonder we don’t see Masons in elected offices now. There has not been a single Mason in the Washington State Governor’s office since 1948; in the previous sixty years only four governors appear not to have been a member of the Craft. Sad isn’t it? Maybe one of the young brothers in our lodge will change that. They are part of a lodge doing things in the community and that’s in a major metropolis.
VW CoeTug Morgan
DAYLIGHT MASONIC LODGE of the ARTS - Seattle's Lodge with an up-to-date attitude and outlook - www.daylightmasons.org
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Here you go - best wishes to
you and all Masons as we put our Masonic tools to work on
the rough ashlars....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Let's put the ' hot sands' issue in perspective. I'm an Industrial Mgr with the appropriate education who is well paid to "solve problems". That doesn't make me any smarter than anyone but it does tell me how business, especially successful business, identifies and solves problems. General Motors does not go out and say "we're selling a lot less cars and we think it's because our ad's & commercials are no good." Rather they would say "we are selling fewer cars - what are the possible causes (and once we identify them, what can we do to mitigate or overcome them?). Maybe our market share is actually growing but the the # of vehicles sold by ALL carmakers is way down. Maybe it's because of our price, our quality, our poor dealer network, poor advertising, lack of innovation, etc and/or because we are actually doing well BUT competition is doing better." In any case, a good business does NOT look to identify & solve a problem with a pre-conceived notion. One of the hallmarks of a successful manager is to carefully & objectively evaluate problems. So bear with me as I treat this question as if it were placed on my desk at the plant today (am the Safety Mgr for a 1500+ emp. poultry processor - family-owned by Masons incidentally!). One of the 1st things you do is define terms AND define the problem - coolly and objectively. In this regard a question was asked with an obvious pre-bias that we already knew the answer (ie. hot sands cause membership loss) and wanted support for our premise. Far better to have said "Statistics show there has been a persistent 3-5% decline in the # of Shriners for each of the last 7 years - what is/are the cause(s) of this decline?" Secondly, one considers all the pre-conditions (environment) surrounding & affecting the problem. Think 'out of the box'. We should not assume that the decline in Shrine mbrship is due to Hot Sands unless there is hard, objective evidence submitted [survey, etc] to prove same. It's better to state the problem thusly; "the following are cited by various sources as possible causes: fewer Blue Lodge Masons, lack of close ties between Masonry & Shrinedom, failure of Shriners to identify themselves to the public as Masons, deaths of the large group of post-WWII Shrine Masons now in their 80's and above, less 'joining' of all groups by Americans in general, the perceived cost, etc etc". Third, after stating the problem objectively andf citing possible documented causes, one then seeks data to support or oppose each potential cause AS WELL AS identifying other possible causes. This can be done by looking at all the available databases. Then, after gathering all possible data (in the case of Shriner mbrship decline I would analyze EACH Temple's mbrship data for 20 yrs - how much of the loss is due to demits, deaths and/or lack of new mbrs? See which Temples do better (& worse) & find out why? (and also consider external factors - Temples in areas with growing populations [AZ, FL, etc] should do better than those in areas with declining population, etc). Please consider all of this, as our Blue Lodge ritual states, "wise counsel whispered in the ear of a Brother..." I sense some times our zeal for Masonry clouds our judgement. I'm very fervent about the role of Masonry in a man's life and I have spoken out at a Lodge where Masters and Wardens are reading the Opening & Closing, do nothing but pay bills and go home, etc. They cheat themselves AND the many men outside the Lodge who would benefit from being Masons in a "working" lodge (the operative word being "working"). It would work better if we said, "There is a decline in Shrine (or Lodge)mbrship , what reasons do our readers believe are the major ones (and please provide evidence rather than opinions) and what are solutions to same? Why do some Temples grow or at least remain steady in size while many decline? What can we learn from those with the most precipitious losses as well as those having even modest gains?" If, and I say IF, the premier cause of Shrine mbrship decline is 'hot sands' (or Lodge mbrship declibe was lackadaisial Officers) than you would have good reason to say 'Down with hot sands, ban them' but until we objectively reach the point where hot sands are seen as a cause of mbrship decline, we are using what politcially is known as a red herring; refocusing attention from the real problem to a minor one. We also do a disservice to Brothers who disagree with us if we do not handle the disagreement as 'brothers' rather than as adversaries. Remember, we are to avoid conflict with Brothers. Disagree as gentlemen but do so in an objective way remembering that at the end of the discussion you & he are my Brothers and we are yours. THAT & that alone is the 'secret' of Masonry! I myself am not a Shriner for one reason (and the same reason others have told me). Although I applaud (and help both with time and money) the Hospitals, I am opposed to the Shrine's failure to in any way ID themselves as Masons to the general public. No Shrine parde unit I've ever seen had any Masonic emlem or signage on it. (although Lodge floats frequently display the entire 'Masonic family' of emblems). It makes non-Shriner Masons feel like they are somehow 'less' because seemingly a Shriner is a bigger 'name' than Mason. Also too many Shriners recruit non-Masons to become Shriners with an attitude of 'well you gotta become a Mason 1st but just go to a one-day class, pay your fee and then forget about Lodge and just come have fun with us'. Hopefully this is a tiny minority of Shriners. I will petition a Shrine when they use the term Shrine Mason and identify parade units as being Masonic. Shrinedom was created by 32 Degree Masons who felt that the 'cream of the crop' ie. Masons who had gone thru the entire 32 Degrees via York or Scottish Rites and tended to be the more involved "pillars of the community" should have a 'Masonic' outlet where they could have fun and provide philanthropy outside mainstream Masonry charities. Unfortunately Shriners now do not seek Masons who have gone the extra mile to further themselves in Masonry but seek anyone regardless of their committment to the Fraternity. The net result is more Shrine Masons who are Masons in name only . Getting back to your original premise. Let's examine why men do and do not petition Lodges, Consistories, Chapters and Temples. Let's do so objectively and without preconceived notions. Then let us take the answers, learn from them., address the challenges and opportunities and turn things around. There ARE Lodges with growing and better membership rolls - what do they do and how do they do it? Gerald A. Edgar Mosaic #125 AF&AM @ Dubuque,
IA
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I joined the Shrine in the Spring Ceremonial 1975. Just five days earlier I had surgery to remove a kidney stone. At the Ceremonial, a big red 'C' was placed on my forehead at the instructions of the attending Physician. They put boxing gloves and a blindfold on me and gave someone a wooden stick with a boxing glove on the end of it but neglected to tell him about the kidney surgery. His preferred choice to punch me was in the kidneys so he would be at my back. I was hurting so bad and swinging wildly and finally connected with the gloved end of the stick sending it straight into his gonads. He walked kind of funny for a few days. My Lady and I went to the Ceremonial dance that night, I was a little sore but, had a good time. I have mixed feeling about hazing of any kind because it can get out of hand very quickly. I know it is done in the spirit of having fun at your expense and in hopes that you will want to be a part of having fun at someone else's expense. I do understand brothers wanting to say "I walked the hot sands". Because not everyone can walk the hot sands. None of us were given any information about what was going to happen to us. Some would say I should have waited till the Fall Ceremonial but I had already bought my unit scooter and wanted to start making parades with the Brothers I worked with that had talked me into joining the Shrine. All in all it has been one hell of a ride I would not want to change it. I think because there have been some injuries with the hot sands they will eventually completely remove it from the Ceremonial If there is going to be a vote about the MM degree? I vote NO!!! I do not want to remove the second section of the Master degree. The symbolism of where we came from and where we are going is just too great! Fraternally, Ben Steen, PM 2005, Jones City Lodge #537 India Shrine, Okla. City, OK |
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Here are the emails in support of abolishing the hot sands. There are some emails which I was asked to post anonymously or to remove the reference to a particular temple.
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As the father of a daughter,
this got my attention as much as it will get yours.... I was asked by the individual who sent it, to post it anonymously. Sad, isn't it, that we have to be so worried about retaliation from our supposed brothers that we can't sign our names.... To me, THAT is one of the real tragedies in our fraternity. |
One of the
Masonic youth groups as a cost savings during a trip, had
requested to overnight in a Masonic temple. Permission was
granted to use the second floor as the Shrine would be
conducting a ceremonial on the 1st floor the
day/evening the youth group arrived. A day before the youth
group was to begin travel the
adult advisor received a call from the Shrine office requesting
that the youth group find lodging elsewhere as "the Shrine could
not be responsible for their members actions with all these
young girls around". "You know we Shriners really like to let
our hair down during ceremonial and can get pretty tanked and
wild".
What
impression did this leave on these young ladies who were
being taught that members of the Shrine were adults to emulate
and to respect? These girls now view the Shrine as
individuals who don't walk the talk about all their good with
children. Do you really think these girls will encourage
their husbands to join Shrine? What about the impression
that was left with the non-Masonic fathers about their daughters
involvement with such a group? Do you think they want to join
Shrine or even a Blue Lodge? Two of the girls had to
drop their membership because of this. There are lots
and lots of fine Shriners out there, but it only took a very few
to destroy so much from their inability to step up to the
plate.
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How much public damage will we have to endure to the hospitals to get these shut down once and for all? I think a high profile lawsuit over hazing practices would NOT shut down the hospitals, but I do think it would adversely effect donations. I also think it would hurt prospects for membership, and probably open the door to more lawsuits. Are you willing to sacrifice the treatment of the kids for the "fun" of shocking your friends for a few minutes? My opinion is that "sacrificing the treatment of the kids" is not the issue - I believe that the hot sands do NOTHING to cause "bonding", nor does the ceremony have any other positive effect, other than to provide a college-frat-like form of entertainment for those who watch it. I am reminded of the Shrine unit that, a few years ago, shot and killed the man during an initiation ceremony. Think of the pain and suffering to the family of the poor Mason who innocently trusted his friends, not to mention the shame and humiliation that brought to the guys who did it, and to the Shrine. It was an accident, it never should have happened. Same thing if someone is hurt during the Hot Sands. Dick Brown
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| And the advocates of the Hot Sands act like there are never any injuries......... |
Carl
I was the
first one out in the group, for that weekends entertainment.
They zapped me so hard I fell and sprung my wrist and they
continued to pour hot sands on me while I was on the floor. I
was so mad I wanted to kick somebody's butt. The Potentate came
to the back and apologized to me and told the guys to back off
the machine.
I left and
didn't stay for the rest of the days events. I am not for it.
Odds will catch up with them and they will hurt someone real bad
or someone will die.
thanks,
Randy Carr
Plano Lodge
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I asked him if this was Hella.
Here is his reply.
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Carl
Yes, it was
at Hella, 1999 or 2000. I know everyone got a big laugh, but I
didn't think it was very funny.
thanks,
Randy
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You have permission to
publish anything I send to you. For this email though I would
ask that you respect my privacy as I am just too busy to put up
with the silliness that flows from having an opinion. Sorry.
You are right Carl, the Hot Sands are a dinosaur. I joined the Shrine about the same time as you and was exempt from the hot sands because I was having some health issues at that time... that said, I didn't see that day nor in the following years anything to change my mind: Shrine initiations are childish, dangerous, counter-productive and foolhardy expressions of the worst male behavior on the planet ! Have we been sued? YES. Will we continue to get sued? Of course!! To me the Hot Sands of the Shrine puts me in mind of that lower class mind set that exhibits itself in hitting on another mans Wife, drinking and carrying a loaded firearm and defying anyone to say anything about it. To me it is the personification of the BUBBA kind of guy not all of whom live south of Ohio! We have tons of BUBBA'S around here. Sometimes fella's get sorta "stuck" mentally around 14 somewhere. If my memory is working today.... it seems to me.... back in your "formally young" days did you not float about in one of our first rate war canoes?.... How about crossing the Equator? Tailhook?? etc It seems we American's have a long and tawdry history of mis-behaving and trying to re-badge it as a rite of passage. In the past we told the World about how we stood for freedom and justice for all (except certain colors of Americans) We bleat about voting rights for all (except females) Either of us could go on and on.. the point being we appear to have a double standard still today when we look the other way as our government mis treats military prisoners...... I don't like any of it but I suspect you and I are in the minority here Carl. I wish you and Topper the best there is. The man of today, I think, is a far different kind of man from earlier generations. We are speeding towards a 2 class society that will eventually cause the United States to become a 3rd world power. The ultra wealthy have a much different way of looking at things than their predecessors. The newly minted Working Poor similarly have different needs, wants, and hopes than the WWll generation that allowed Freemasonry to grow so large. The American middle class that powered so much of what we see as "normal" today has largely been abolished. The danger I see in a 2 class society, Rich and everyone else, is that the poor have NEVER had enough to pay America's bills and the wealthy have always had loop holes to allow them to escape paying much of the cost of Government. That leaves the vanishing middle class to pay the bills, join the fraternal organizations and die in wars. The rich are not willing to assume those costs....... Unfortunately there are still a lot of old guys around that remember when everything was new and are very uncomfortable with change. which brings us back to the hot sands and a generation of male that just doesn't relate to the barbarism and humiliation of such immature antics. Take care Man..... see ya down the road. |
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Brother Carl, I rarely respond to the all the great and valid subjects and issues you present, as I generally feel my opinions aren't first hand or relevant. On this issue I do have first hand experience. I joined the Shrine in the spring of '79, "short form", on the third day of the spring Scottish Rite reunion at the conclusion of the 32 degree. This was a common practice and candidates where invited to come back and take the Hot Sands at a full form ceremonial. I, however due to my friends on the chefs committee at Scottish Rite, became very active in the 101's and was always back in the food prep areas etc., so for about 2 years I did not go through the hot sands. Around 81 I had my hot sands experience. Since the very early 80"s, experiencing the "Hot Sands", I have not been active in any unit. I did continue to work the hospital benefit day for the next 10years or so, but I have not, and do not participate in any degrees or units since. I do occasionally come to fund-raisers and blood drives, as well as Masonic events hosted at the local Shrine Temple. Carl, you have known me for many years and know I am not thin skinned. I take a large amount of brotherly teasing and just keep on smiling, because we are all brothers and friends, and I choose to take it all in a positive way rather than negatively. I personally believe those brothers absolutely meant every bit of the "hot sands" to be good fun and a memorable experience, and am still friends and brothers with all who are still here. I have worked or been active in almost every other Masonic arena in this area, and some of the degrees get a bit forceful, but I believe the "hot sands" of bygone days and probably even those of today, surpass them all, and I will never be associated with that "ceremony" as I know it, personally again. I must say I have not stayed to watch since I received mine accept sometime in the early 90's and I still felt it was inappropriate but mine was a minority opinion and I respect that. I hope things are better now. Those brothers whose petitions I have taken in (or much more often have given to others to take in), I have encouraged to forgo the "sands" or opt-out as an active participant for medical reasons, never lying about it, but using any reason, short of lying, not too. I will not participate in the Hot Sands ceremonial in any form, even the "kinder gentler" version I have heard we use now, as long as we come close to what some might call hazing. Some say the candidates do not complain and I'm sure that is correct, but what do most young men do after a hazing? They buck up, take it and smile.... It is what we are taught in sports and clubs as young boys. You take your lumps and move on. For years when asked why I don't participate in the Shrine, I "pass off", and do not give the real answer and give convenient "my lodge meets on Thursday's.... or....just can't find the extra time" excuses, which, though true are not the ultimate reason for my inactivity. I have managed to volunteer numerous hours at other Masonic related charities and organizations for the past 20 years. So finding the time is never an issue if you love something and want to have your name actively associated with it. I have on two separate occasions, for one year each time, gone NPD because I wasn't sure I wanted to stay in the Shrine. Both occasions where due to negative perceptions of the Shrine in relation to the fraternity as a whole. Several years ago, the late 90's, I observed what I perceived to be a genuine effort by the officers at the Shrine to stay connected to all the local Masonic bodies, which continued even after the Imperial vote to alter the Shrine membership requirements, so I decided to purchase an endowed membership, to show my support for the local Shrine Temple and the officers and I have encouraged the company where I am employed to support our local Shrine through the circus by purchasing adds in the program for the circus for several years now. If I am assured things are better for the candidate I would heartily participate again. I will however remain inactive indefinitely, and I will not voice my differences other than this response as I do not want to discourage young masons from becoming members of the Shrine, or add any public damage to our image by my comments or experiences. I firmly believe the Masonic adage of who can" best work and best agree" and mine has been a minority opinion. The local Shrine has survived the last 25years without my active participation and will probably do just fine without me for years to come. The officers, rank and file are great guys and great Brothers and do really fun things. I just believe we can get to the same point without what I perceive as hazing. I will continue to support Shrine efforts as I have. I will continue to proudly take in a petition to support the Shrine efforts as stipulated and give other Masons the same opportunity to make up their own mind about this tradition, but I will not ever actively support any form of Hot Sands that I believe will damage the opinion a good man and a brother Mason has of Masonry. Thanks Your Brother David Rogers |
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This
was originally published on another list. I asked Matthew if I could
post it here. He said yes. The "noble buddy" referred to is a member
of hella. The reference to "not do away with it, has to do with part
of the MM degree.
I added the blue to call your attention to that part of this reply. Proponents of hot sands think they hear the truth when they ask guys if they had a problem with the hot sands. |
----- Original Message -----
From:
maburroughs@comcast.net
Noble Buddy, No I would not do away with it. ((The reference to "not do away with it, has to do with part of the MM degree and not the hot sands.)) There is a purpose and meaning behind it and the new brother is playing a role much like an actor does. It is not degrading or funny but somber and serious, provided no one laughs or does stupid things to the candidate while he is blindfolded and "dead". So totally different than any ceremonial initiations I have witnessed that, whether intended or not, seek to make a public spectacle out of a candidate. Whether or not the new Nobles tell you they enjoyed it, I would bet |